Episode III: Revenge of the Scythians Part III
Alex Parkhomenko said...
First off, let me start by saying that the United States has promised to abide by the Outer Space Treaty and not place any Weapons of Mass Destruction in orbit, and there is no reason for Russian saber-rattling over this since we don`t have adequate launch vehicles at the moment to place WMD`s in position anyway. . What we are trying to do is defend our satellites, and Russia has no reason to oppose this from a self-defense point of view. Russia can only worry about this if they want the ability to knock out our systems-and that means they are positioning themselves for first-strike capabilities. My question for you is, what types of weapons does Russia have in orbit? Russia definitely has satellite killers.
Tim, I don't know what translation did you read, but Ivanov said literally: “We condemn US plans to place any weapons in the outer space. Anyway if this happen I certify that we will be forced to answer it by our own programme wich would be assymetric by scale but truly effective”. And Foreighn Secretary Lavrov said “Russia was always against placing of nuclear weapons on the orbit. We still support UN Unarmament Conference decision to condemn such placement.Out position on that is clear and shared among numerous goverments in the world”.
That was said. No words about first strike. Just clear position.
Tim, I believe this is all about politics. There should be noeclusive right owners in the world. If any country wants to be the most powerful there should be another who balances this power. Just fair.
Why don`t you imagine for a second that the true reason for America is self-defense? Maybe we don`t like having our satellites destroyed as a precurser to a pre-emptive nuclear strike.
I thought this is about terrorism but not Russia. And you talking about preemptive strike from Russia. Here we clearly understand and always was that there will be no survivors in case of any nuclear srike. No at all. And nobody here wants to make any.
US dominates world's politics after 1991 and Ivanov words is a message to the rest of the world: “We are supporting no-weapons-in-space doctrine and we will support others UN countries not just by words but providing good arguments”. Pure politics.
I`m sorry, Alex, but I`ve been taking Putin at his word when he said: "First and foremost, it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century." Putin was an old KGB man, and his administration has been characterized by increasing despotism.
Bush, Sr. is former CIA man but nobody blaims him for that. I doubt KGB and CIA had had differnet methods in the Cold War period. I do doubt.
Ok. A lot of people criticize Putin here for these words. Not for the words is not true but because a lot of people abroad get it wrong.
Let imagine a fantastic thing. US is Communism-driven and Russia has 200+ years democracy. Just imagine ;)
Here in Russia its own Sbignev Bzezhinsky and Marshall plan to destroy communism dictature in US. And US economical situation is even worse and people understand that “plan economy” and weapons race with Russia is worthless and there are some people in Communist party who decide to change the things. And Russia with 200+ democracy helps to achieve new goals.
US should be a democratic country. But something goes wrong. Economy is in ruins because everything is broken. All links are diminished. People are pure but free.
And Texas is going to be independent. Than Florida and than California. And Mexicans is establishing influence in Texas. A lot of criminal. Another currency, etc. But some unique plants was in Texas and Mainland has to build it's own. And Texas has to build everything form the scratch. English is dismissed in Texas and everybody is forced to speak Hispanic. An etc...
Nightmare, isn't it?
I have to said that although I work in Moscow I am not a Russia citizen. My homeland coutry is Kazakhstan and I do love it. I proud of what we did since 91-93. But from the point of our independence till 98 it was a nightmare. A little money in the budget, poverty, no electricity for weeks, cold winters and coal furnaces in flats.
We had relatives around former USSR and all of them are citizens of different countries now. We had no money to visit them.
These eight years was a catastrophe. Demolishing of big country is always a catastrophe. You wasn't been there. You lived in the rich US and studied, changed cars, bought homes when we had no sugar for tea sometimes and I don't mean coffee at all.
USSR was always an enemy for you but just imagine what happens to people there when everything is crashing around. Do you proud that your enemy was demolished and people fall into the povetry?
That what Mr.Putin meant. He is not nostalgic about USSR but he is trying to remind to the world what happened.
1:55 AM
Alex Parkhomenko said...
Unfortunately, Russia has never known these things. First you had the Golden Horde, then the Dukes of Moscow, then the Tsars, then the Bolsheviks. You have never had any tradition of freedom.
During the Golden Horde and Dukes there was no America at all and Europe was in the same stage as Russia. There was Inquisition and Bruno's execution. And what about religion mass-murders? Slavery in America? KKK? No?
What are you trying to say? One nation is better than another?
I think this is merely rasist point of view. We should argue on modern reality but not on the history of the mankind.
Timothy Birdnow responds:
Tim, I don't know what translation did you read, but Ivanov said literally: “We condemn US plans to place any weapons in the outer space. Anyway if this happen I certify that we will be forced to answer it by our own programme wich would be assymetric by scale but truly effective”. And Foreighn Secretary Lavrov said “Russia was always against placing of nuclear weapons on the orbit. We still support UN Unarmament Conference decision to condemn such placement.Out position on that is clear and shared among numerous goverments in the world”.
That was said. No words about first strike. Just clear position.
Alex, that is definitely different than the translation I saw-and a bit less aggressive. It still does not invalidate my point, which is that Russia can, right now, destroy America`s satellite system, thus destroying the command and control for our defenses. We are thinking about building defensive weaponry for our satellites to insure that they are not taken out by anyone-Russians, Chinese, Etc. That Russia has become upset about our desire to do this suggests that Russia wants to have the means of launching a first strike on the United States. Not that they are PLANNING one, but that they have the capabilities. If the situation were reversed and the United States had the means of destroying Russian command and control, no one would fault you for taking steps to prevent this.
Of Course Lavrov and Ivanov are not going to admit that they have a weapon which could allow a first strike on America.
I thought this is about terrorism but not Russia. And you talking about preemptive strike from Russia. Here we clearly understand and always was that there will be no survivors in case of any nuclear srike. No at all. And nobody here wants to make any.
Alex, the misnamed ``War on Terror`` is about much more than chasing terrorists. Terrorism has flourished as a tool of aggression by State sponsors-including the Chinese-and Russia has been supplying weapons and technology to terrorist nations. President Bush has said that we will go after any terrorists with international reach and the states who nurture them. We cannot consider any nation who gives assistance to our enemies an ally. Russian policy has clearly been to quietly undermine our efforts. I can`t say I know the current views (real views, not what is stated for public display) of the Russian government on nuclear war; I know the old Soviets believed they could fight and win such a war, and they made preparations to that effect. They built a missile defense to protect Moscow, they built nuclear shelters, they placed intermediate range nukes in Europe in the `80`s(prompting America to deploy the Pershing II missiles.) Russia has continued building nuclear weapons at a prodigious rate-while the United States has been giving money to Russia to help decommission your arsenal. It is apparent that the United States is not going to attack you (or we would have done it after the Soviet collapse.) Why do you need so many nuclear weapons?
Here in Russia its own Sbignev Bzezhinsky and Marshall plan to destroy communism dictature in US.
Brzezinski was an advocate of Detente, the idea of peaceful coexistence with the Soviet Union. The Marshall plan was about rebuilding war-ravaged Europe, not attacking the U.S.S.R. but I take your point.
And Texas is going to be independent. Than Florida and than California. And Mexicans is establishing influence in Texas. A lot of criminal. Another currency, etc. But some unique plants was in Texas and Mainland has to build it's own. And Texas has to build everything form the scratch. English is dismissed in Texas and everybody is forced to speak Hispanic. An etc...
You don`t know how close to the mark you are, Alex! With all of the illegal immigration from Mexico, we are witnessing something along these lines today in America. :)
USSR was always an enemy for you but just imagine what happens to people there when everything is crashing around. Do you proud that your enemy was demolished and people fall into the povetry
Alex, this is not personal. I, like most Americans, feel terrible about the suffering the oppressed peoples of the former Soviet Union have had to endure. The real tragedy was not the fall of the Soviet Union-it was the birth of the Soviet Union. The suffering of your friends and family did not start with the fall of the Berlin Wall-it started in 1917 with the Bolshevik overthrow of the Kerensky government. We in America have always wished that the captive peoples of the U.S.S.R. would find freedom and prosperity. We have always understood the bankruptcy of socialism and communism, and that it has only the power to destroy. You refer to us as sitting in the rich United States. True. Why is the United States rich? That is what we wanted for you; a free, private market driven system where people would have a say in their lives and could keep the fruits of the own labor. This is what make you rich.
That said, we in America are proud of our efforts in the Cold War because we destroyed what was perhaps the most tyrranical system of governance ever devised. We did not have to face that challenge; we could have let the Soviets have Europe. We fought as much for you and yours as for Germany or France, or even ourselves. In many ways, the Cold War was America`s finest hour.
That said, I still question Mr. Putin`s comments about the collapse of the Soviet Union. It fits into the pattern of his behavior entirely too well. Russia has been very underhanded with us. Russia has been arming our enemies, and now the Russian President bemoans the collapse of the U.S.S.R. If this were an isolated incident, I would overlook it; the fact is, it is not an isolated incident-and Pravda`s anti-American editorials back this concern up.
During the Golden Horde and Dukes there was no America at all and Europe was in the same stage as Russia. There was Inquisition and Bruno's execution. And what about religion mass-murders? Slavery in America? KKK? No?
What are you trying to say? One nation is better than another?
I think this is merely rasist point of view. We should argue on modern reality but not on the history of the mankind.
Alex, I was not trying to impugne Russia or Kazakhstan; I was making the point that Russia, because of historical forces, has not had the benefits of a free and open society. The United States was greatly privileged to come from a long tradition which has given us our liberty and prosperity. Our English roots gave us the Magna Carta and Adam Smith, the religious character of our original settlers has given us a society which respects the individual and respects civility. These are all blessings bestowed upon us, we were blessed with natural borders which helped give us security. Russia did not have such luxury; without natural borders the Russians had only as much security as they could make. Winters are hard and the growing season short. The Golden Horde destroyed the fledgling democratic institutions (if they hadn`t, the Teutonic Knights would have), and later the Dukes of Moscow put the Orthodox Church under their thumbs. Russia has had a very difficult history. I am not claiming Americans are superior to Russians; I am saying that, thanks to our good fortune and blessings from God, America has been able to develope a better system. It is much more difficult for Russia to develope a free system, given your history. It is far too easy to slip back into the old ways, to force your will with the barrell of a gun. Russia is, and always has been, held together by force of arms alone.
Which is, ultimately, my whole point. I want to see a free and prosperous Russia. I want us to be friends and allies. That won`t happen as long as the forces of tyranny and collectivization remain. Russia must reform if it is not to perish. The era of totalitarian control is gone. It is no longer possible to keep people ignorant, to maintain absolute control. That is what our ``War on Terror`` is about as much as anything-it is about the yearning for freedom throughout the world versus the lust for control by the tyrannts. Freedom is on the march throughout the world. Unfortunately, Putin and the current Russian government seems to be resisting that march.
Thanks!
Tim
First off, let me start by saying that the United States has promised to abide by the Outer Space Treaty and not place any Weapons of Mass Destruction in orbit, and there is no reason for Russian saber-rattling over this since we don`t have adequate launch vehicles at the moment to place WMD`s in position anyway. . What we are trying to do is defend our satellites, and Russia has no reason to oppose this from a self-defense point of view. Russia can only worry about this if they want the ability to knock out our systems-and that means they are positioning themselves for first-strike capabilities. My question for you is, what types of weapons does Russia have in orbit? Russia definitely has satellite killers.
Tim, I don't know what translation did you read, but Ivanov said literally: “We condemn US plans to place any weapons in the outer space. Anyway if this happen I certify that we will be forced to answer it by our own programme wich would be assymetric by scale but truly effective”. And Foreighn Secretary Lavrov said “Russia was always against placing of nuclear weapons on the orbit. We still support UN Unarmament Conference decision to condemn such placement.Out position on that is clear and shared among numerous goverments in the world”.
That was said. No words about first strike. Just clear position.
Tim, I believe this is all about politics. There should be noeclusive right owners in the world. If any country wants to be the most powerful there should be another who balances this power. Just fair.
Why don`t you imagine for a second that the true reason for America is self-defense? Maybe we don`t like having our satellites destroyed as a precurser to a pre-emptive nuclear strike.
I thought this is about terrorism but not Russia. And you talking about preemptive strike from Russia. Here we clearly understand and always was that there will be no survivors in case of any nuclear srike. No at all. And nobody here wants to make any.
US dominates world's politics after 1991 and Ivanov words is a message to the rest of the world: “We are supporting no-weapons-in-space doctrine and we will support others UN countries not just by words but providing good arguments”. Pure politics.
I`m sorry, Alex, but I`ve been taking Putin at his word when he said: "First and foremost, it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century." Putin was an old KGB man, and his administration has been characterized by increasing despotism.
Bush, Sr. is former CIA man but nobody blaims him for that. I doubt KGB and CIA had had differnet methods in the Cold War period. I do doubt.
Ok. A lot of people criticize Putin here for these words. Not for the words is not true but because a lot of people abroad get it wrong.
Let imagine a fantastic thing. US is Communism-driven and Russia has 200+ years democracy. Just imagine ;)
Here in Russia its own Sbignev Bzezhinsky and Marshall plan to destroy communism dictature in US. And US economical situation is even worse and people understand that “plan economy” and weapons race with Russia is worthless and there are some people in Communist party who decide to change the things. And Russia with 200+ democracy helps to achieve new goals.
US should be a democratic country. But something goes wrong. Economy is in ruins because everything is broken. All links are diminished. People are pure but free.
And Texas is going to be independent. Than Florida and than California. And Mexicans is establishing influence in Texas. A lot of criminal. Another currency, etc. But some unique plants was in Texas and Mainland has to build it's own. And Texas has to build everything form the scratch. English is dismissed in Texas and everybody is forced to speak Hispanic. An etc...
Nightmare, isn't it?
I have to said that although I work in Moscow I am not a Russia citizen. My homeland coutry is Kazakhstan and I do love it. I proud of what we did since 91-93. But from the point of our independence till 98 it was a nightmare. A little money in the budget, poverty, no electricity for weeks, cold winters and coal furnaces in flats.
We had relatives around former USSR and all of them are citizens of different countries now. We had no money to visit them.
These eight years was a catastrophe. Demolishing of big country is always a catastrophe. You wasn't been there. You lived in the rich US and studied, changed cars, bought homes when we had no sugar for tea sometimes and I don't mean coffee at all.
USSR was always an enemy for you but just imagine what happens to people there when everything is crashing around. Do you proud that your enemy was demolished and people fall into the povetry?
That what Mr.Putin meant. He is not nostalgic about USSR but he is trying to remind to the world what happened.
1:55 AM
Alex Parkhomenko said...
Unfortunately, Russia has never known these things. First you had the Golden Horde, then the Dukes of Moscow, then the Tsars, then the Bolsheviks. You have never had any tradition of freedom.
During the Golden Horde and Dukes there was no America at all and Europe was in the same stage as Russia. There was Inquisition and Bruno's execution. And what about religion mass-murders? Slavery in America? KKK? No?
What are you trying to say? One nation is better than another?
I think this is merely rasist point of view. We should argue on modern reality but not on the history of the mankind.
Timothy Birdnow responds:
Tim, I don't know what translation did you read, but Ivanov said literally: “We condemn US plans to place any weapons in the outer space. Anyway if this happen I certify that we will be forced to answer it by our own programme wich would be assymetric by scale but truly effective”. And Foreighn Secretary Lavrov said “Russia was always against placing of nuclear weapons on the orbit. We still support UN Unarmament Conference decision to condemn such placement.Out position on that is clear and shared among numerous goverments in the world”.
That was said. No words about first strike. Just clear position.
Alex, that is definitely different than the translation I saw-and a bit less aggressive. It still does not invalidate my point, which is that Russia can, right now, destroy America`s satellite system, thus destroying the command and control for our defenses. We are thinking about building defensive weaponry for our satellites to insure that they are not taken out by anyone-Russians, Chinese, Etc. That Russia has become upset about our desire to do this suggests that Russia wants to have the means of launching a first strike on the United States. Not that they are PLANNING one, but that they have the capabilities. If the situation were reversed and the United States had the means of destroying Russian command and control, no one would fault you for taking steps to prevent this.
Of Course Lavrov and Ivanov are not going to admit that they have a weapon which could allow a first strike on America.
I thought this is about terrorism but not Russia. And you talking about preemptive strike from Russia. Here we clearly understand and always was that there will be no survivors in case of any nuclear srike. No at all. And nobody here wants to make any.
Alex, the misnamed ``War on Terror`` is about much more than chasing terrorists. Terrorism has flourished as a tool of aggression by State sponsors-including the Chinese-and Russia has been supplying weapons and technology to terrorist nations. President Bush has said that we will go after any terrorists with international reach and the states who nurture them. We cannot consider any nation who gives assistance to our enemies an ally. Russian policy has clearly been to quietly undermine our efforts. I can`t say I know the current views (real views, not what is stated for public display) of the Russian government on nuclear war; I know the old Soviets believed they could fight and win such a war, and they made preparations to that effect. They built a missile defense to protect Moscow, they built nuclear shelters, they placed intermediate range nukes in Europe in the `80`s(prompting America to deploy the Pershing II missiles.) Russia has continued building nuclear weapons at a prodigious rate-while the United States has been giving money to Russia to help decommission your arsenal. It is apparent that the United States is not going to attack you (or we would have done it after the Soviet collapse.) Why do you need so many nuclear weapons?
Here in Russia its own Sbignev Bzezhinsky and Marshall plan to destroy communism dictature in US.
Brzezinski was an advocate of Detente, the idea of peaceful coexistence with the Soviet Union. The Marshall plan was about rebuilding war-ravaged Europe, not attacking the U.S.S.R. but I take your point.
And Texas is going to be independent. Than Florida and than California. And Mexicans is establishing influence in Texas. A lot of criminal. Another currency, etc. But some unique plants was in Texas and Mainland has to build it's own. And Texas has to build everything form the scratch. English is dismissed in Texas and everybody is forced to speak Hispanic. An etc...
You don`t know how close to the mark you are, Alex! With all of the illegal immigration from Mexico, we are witnessing something along these lines today in America. :)
USSR was always an enemy for you but just imagine what happens to people there when everything is crashing around. Do you proud that your enemy was demolished and people fall into the povetry
Alex, this is not personal. I, like most Americans, feel terrible about the suffering the oppressed peoples of the former Soviet Union have had to endure. The real tragedy was not the fall of the Soviet Union-it was the birth of the Soviet Union. The suffering of your friends and family did not start with the fall of the Berlin Wall-it started in 1917 with the Bolshevik overthrow of the Kerensky government. We in America have always wished that the captive peoples of the U.S.S.R. would find freedom and prosperity. We have always understood the bankruptcy of socialism and communism, and that it has only the power to destroy. You refer to us as sitting in the rich United States. True. Why is the United States rich? That is what we wanted for you; a free, private market driven system where people would have a say in their lives and could keep the fruits of the own labor. This is what make you rich.
That said, we in America are proud of our efforts in the Cold War because we destroyed what was perhaps the most tyrranical system of governance ever devised. We did not have to face that challenge; we could have let the Soviets have Europe. We fought as much for you and yours as for Germany or France, or even ourselves. In many ways, the Cold War was America`s finest hour.
That said, I still question Mr. Putin`s comments about the collapse of the Soviet Union. It fits into the pattern of his behavior entirely too well. Russia has been very underhanded with us. Russia has been arming our enemies, and now the Russian President bemoans the collapse of the U.S.S.R. If this were an isolated incident, I would overlook it; the fact is, it is not an isolated incident-and Pravda`s anti-American editorials back this concern up.
During the Golden Horde and Dukes there was no America at all and Europe was in the same stage as Russia. There was Inquisition and Bruno's execution. And what about religion mass-murders? Slavery in America? KKK? No?
What are you trying to say? One nation is better than another?
I think this is merely rasist point of view. We should argue on modern reality but not on the history of the mankind.
Alex, I was not trying to impugne Russia or Kazakhstan; I was making the point that Russia, because of historical forces, has not had the benefits of a free and open society. The United States was greatly privileged to come from a long tradition which has given us our liberty and prosperity. Our English roots gave us the Magna Carta and Adam Smith, the religious character of our original settlers has given us a society which respects the individual and respects civility. These are all blessings bestowed upon us, we were blessed with natural borders which helped give us security. Russia did not have such luxury; without natural borders the Russians had only as much security as they could make. Winters are hard and the growing season short. The Golden Horde destroyed the fledgling democratic institutions (if they hadn`t, the Teutonic Knights would have), and later the Dukes of Moscow put the Orthodox Church under their thumbs. Russia has had a very difficult history. I am not claiming Americans are superior to Russians; I am saying that, thanks to our good fortune and blessings from God, America has been able to develope a better system. It is much more difficult for Russia to develope a free system, given your history. It is far too easy to slip back into the old ways, to force your will with the barrell of a gun. Russia is, and always has been, held together by force of arms alone.
Which is, ultimately, my whole point. I want to see a free and prosperous Russia. I want us to be friends and allies. That won`t happen as long as the forces of tyranny and collectivization remain. Russia must reform if it is not to perish. The era of totalitarian control is gone. It is no longer possible to keep people ignorant, to maintain absolute control. That is what our ``War on Terror`` is about as much as anything-it is about the yearning for freedom throughout the world versus the lust for control by the tyrannts. Freedom is on the march throughout the world. Unfortunately, Putin and the current Russian government seems to be resisting that march.
Thanks!
Tim
posted by Timothy Birdnow | 12:10 PM
1 Comments:
Putin scares the crap out of me. I do feel like he's sliding his country (and trying to pull others too) back into their not-so-glorious past.
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