Fallout over Vienna
There has been quite a bit of fallout (mostly positive) from my American Thinker article Morning in Vienna. I thought everyone might enjoy reading some of it:
Hello.
I would like to add my ideas to those of some editorial writers & pundits who seem to be perplexed by seemingly muddled attitudes in Western Europe to the conflicts in the Middle East.Perhaps the hard to answer questions are hard to answer because they are answers to the wrong questions.The commonly accepted wisdom is that the EU is in the same boat as the US & Israel in being under the threat of being wiped out by Islamic fanatics & therefore will work with us in fighting back,this analysis is false.The western EU nations are not interested in fighting off the hungry Islamic wolves,they are interested in preserving their own skins by offering up someone else,preferably Israel,as a human sacrifice to placate the Moslems.The Europeans are not one of the targets,they are part of the problem.the EU correctly believes that they are not the primary targets,the USA & Israel are the main targets & they, the EU, will be left out it if they grovel & abase themselves & beg the Moslems for forgiveness for past transgressions.the EU & the Arab states form a political axis in the UN & are close trading partners.The EU needs Arab input into their economies to sustain their welfare states & will side with the Arabs in any conflict against the expendable Jews.The idea of Europe being overrun by Crazy Moslems(Eurabia) is completely over stated, Europe may be weak & susceptible to being overthrown by a big push by the Moslems,but the Moslems are equally anemic and can't give that push.The Moslems are not a threat to destroy traditional European civilization, the Socialist have already accomplished this on their own.The Europeans are the suppliers of material & know how that keep the Jihad going ,so why would the Arabs hurt Europe, other then a kick in the backside every so often,to remind the EU who is boss.Without European material & support,Arab ability to make war against Israel would have proven impossible long ago.The Social Engineers,( the Socialists in the EU & their partners in crime in America) know that the Arab half of this axis is economically indispensable to their dreams of Utopia & if the Arabs want to murder all of the Jews,that will be O.K. with the EU.As for much of the mainstream media which generates agit/prop for the Arabs,the same factors stated above apply.If big victories are not achieved by Israel & the U.S. in the next couple of years ( after the present administration leaves office) & if the Democrats take over the White House,Israel could be in big trouble. Without friends in the White House & with enemies in the EU (after Blair) things could get ugly in the Middle East.
SID WEINER
And then there is this message thread at Lucianne (Hat Tip-Aussiegirl):
Moring in Vienna
The American Thinker, by Timothy Birdnow
Original Article
Posted By:magnante, 8/5/2006 2:43:32 PM
There are pivotal moments in history, events in which the course of
human affairs is altered forever. One such moment occurred along the
Danube River in 1683. On that fateful morning in the later 17th century,
the fate of Western Civilization was sealed by the determination of
those brave defenders who stood their ground against the might of the
Ottoman Turks. We face a similar crisis today
Comments:
Reply 1 - Posted by: tnmartin, 8/5/2006 3:02:14 PM
Please read and save this article. Please do. One of our terrible
weaknesses is that we no longer read and know the history of our
civilized world and how we got to this point. Our enemies have not made
that mistake, and in fact know of our weakness in this. That needs to be
remedied, but that is a discussion for another day.
Reply 2 - Posted by: Arrasate, 8/5/2006 4:53:19 PM
This is a must read article.
A few months after 9/11 I stood at the Palacio Real in Madrid, Spain and
looked out at the Campo del moro, where the Moors camped as they
attacked Madrid in the 12th century. It's now a park, but the battle has
never ended.
It's vengeance they seek and the battle in Lebanon is another attempt at
payback.
I brought back a small doll that represents a woman of Madrid in native
costume. She holds a small baton in her hand, representing how the women
of Madrid engaged in hand to hand combat when the city was invaded and
their men were away. I think it's a real symbol of how vigilant we have
to be. They know what they want and we have to be clear about what we
will lose.
Reply 3 - Posted by: LadyVet, 8/5/2006 5:03:28 PM
#2, many people in the U.S. still feel the history of that battle where
the women fought. As a result of that and other battles where the women
also fought, the Spanish women claimed property rights, sort of a ''to a
victor goes the spoils'' thing. Several large states including
California, Texas, and Florida still have property laws based on the
Spanish system, thus married women are deemed to own half the property
acquired during a marriage. Overall, it is a more equitable system than
in those states which have separate property laws based on English
common law.
Reply 4 - Posted by: Flintlock, 8/5/2006 5:12:24 PM
Lock and load, people.
The battle is on.
Our gutless leaders still don't have a clue.
Bush at least knows he must fight, but hasen't yet figured out WHO.
Reply 5 - Posted by: tnmartin, 8/5/2006 5:17:35 PM
Point is, we're all feeling the effects of that battle. Both above
posters have thrown some light on some of those effects, I was unaware
of either.
But the point is that without the victory at the gates of Vienna, this
would be a different world. And a much worse one. The Muslims know and
keep alive the memory of 9/10/1683. Few Americans are aware of what
happened that day or what those fighting bequeathed us.
I fear we have squandered what their blood bought us, and as a result of
our sleep we shall fight similar battles, ones we may not win. Should
our descendants think well of us, or shall they curse our cowardice and
appeasement?
Reply 6 - Posted by: Aussiegirl, 8/5/2006 5:30:55 PM
This is an absolute must-read! We are doomed to repeat the mistakes of
history if we do not learn from it. How many people understand how
pivotal this one battle was in the entire history of the world? Imagine
this world if Islam had conquered Europe back than and remained in
power! Just look to modern day Iran to see what a nightmarish, brutal
backwater would be created. Persia was the seat of civilization at one
time in its history prior to being conquered by Islam. It was the center
of Zoroastroism, an enlightened monotheistic religion, and its culture
would have given rise to a great civilization. But its defeat by Islam
has deformed its once great culture, and left it as the menace we see
today. Islam pollutes everything it touches. Kudos to the author for
bringing this to our attention.
Reply 7 - Posted by: Arrasate, 8/5/2006 6:48:19 PM
Thanks #3, I didn't realize the connection between my Spanish doll and
my property rights, how interesting!
Reply 8 - Posted by: baja_ha, 8/5/2006 9:46:53 PM
Time to break out one of my favorite Patton quotes again:
''One cannot but ponder the question: What if the Arabs had been
Christian? To me it seems certain that the fatalistic teachings of
Mohammed and the utter degradation of women is the outstanding cause for
the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the
year 700, while we have kept on developing. Here, I think, is a text for
some eloquent sermon on the virtues of Christianity.''
~~ General George S. Patton, in his
autobiography, ''War As I Knew It''
Reply 9 - Posted by: zchem, 8/5/2006 10:53:13 PM
The Islaamic educational system of requriing young children to learn the
Koran before even reaching the age of reason is deeply flawed. Their
minda are hoplessly POISENED. Islam as it is now practiced must be
destroyed. If the nuts in Iran succeed in producing atomic weapons, they
will be willing to fight to the death of OUR PLANET, leaving earth as a
redioactive
wasteland. Billions of poisened minds can make billions of determined
terrorists.
Post Reply Close thread 289170
We have this from Free Republic:
Clearly, the democrats don't have the will for this fight and they'll capitulate the first chance they get.
2 posted on 08/06/2006 6:16:27 AM PDT by hershey
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
Good article. Thanks for posting.
We a witnessing the greatest anti-freedom, anti-life collective in the history of mankind.
3 posted on 08/06/2006 6:19:56 AM PDT by PGalt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
The Islamic world would have remained a backwater had it not been for a couple of fortuitous occurrences: the discovery of massive amounts of oil under the desert sands and the rise and fall of Soviet Communism.
So, let us utterly destroy these cancers on our society, and take all their oil! We already helped down the RUSSIAN Commies. We have just a few more totalitarian regimes to fell.
If they wanna play with nukes, let's oblige!
4 posted on 08/06/2006 6:31:23 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
An excellent historical perspective by Birdnow. His rationale for 9/11 being correlated to the Ottoman defeat at Vienna is compelling. Can we doubt that Ahmadinejad will confer equivalent infamy on August 6th if he is not thwarted?
5 posted on 08/06/2006 7:00:44 AM PDT by CharlesThe Hammer
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
Does President Bush have the will? If there is another major terror attack in the Bush years, he will out-Hoover Hoover in the pages of history (for history, regardless who writes it, is taught by liberals).
It was encouraging when, in the last SOTU address, he referred to "radical Islam." But have we heard the phrase from him since?
6 posted on 08/06/2006 7:08:58 AM PDT by Graymatter (Don't like the PC, the lies, of the MSM? Don't watch TV.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
Good historical perspective.
We have not yet seen our "Gates of Vienna".
7 posted on 08/06/2006 7:20:06 AM PDT by Gritty (At the end of the war we win, there is light. At the end of the war we lose, there is the end.-Ben S)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
..we have the means, but do we have the will?
Sadly, as many more erudite than I have stated, "They are willing to die for their beliefs, while we are unwilling to kill them for ours." Ergo, we cannot win, and they will not lose.
A corollary to this is that when you do not wage war on an enemy that is at war with you, you fail. In that simplistic phrase is the implication that the one waging 'war' knows what the word means - destruction of the foe by killing its people and breaking its property. This is done without regard to concepts like civilians, proportionality or human rights. War is waged successfully without the fear that your enemy will not like you in the end; the enemy cannot hate you anymore than to aspire to killing you, your children, your way of life and your civilization.
8 posted on 08/06/2006 8:33:32 AM PDT by Thommas (The snout of the camel is in the tent...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Thommas
Excellent post.
Though the non-muslin world will not sink to the craven depths of warfare as conducted by the islamics (i.e. targeting civilians, hiding by women and children, beheadings, etc.), our rules of engagement will eventually fall to a kind of a common denominator of cruelty (in which our ways, while never cowardly like theirs, will become commensurately vicious).
Here is a lengthy and heated argument at a blog called Redneck`s Revenge about the piece.
Finally, there is an interesting discussion at America`s Debate about the War in general, curtesy of MOIF, that you may want to check out.
Thanks to all!
Hello.
I would like to add my ideas to those of some editorial writers & pundits who seem to be perplexed by seemingly muddled attitudes in Western Europe to the conflicts in the Middle East.Perhaps the hard to answer questions are hard to answer because they are answers to the wrong questions.The commonly accepted wisdom is that the EU is in the same boat as the US & Israel in being under the threat of being wiped out by Islamic fanatics & therefore will work with us in fighting back,this analysis is false.The western EU nations are not interested in fighting off the hungry Islamic wolves,they are interested in preserving their own skins by offering up someone else,preferably Israel,as a human sacrifice to placate the Moslems.The Europeans are not one of the targets,they are part of the problem.the EU correctly believes that they are not the primary targets,the USA & Israel are the main targets & they, the EU, will be left out it if they grovel & abase themselves & beg the Moslems for forgiveness for past transgressions.the EU & the Arab states form a political axis in the UN & are close trading partners.The EU needs Arab input into their economies to sustain their welfare states & will side with the Arabs in any conflict against the expendable Jews.The idea of Europe being overrun by Crazy Moslems(Eurabia) is completely over stated, Europe may be weak & susceptible to being overthrown by a big push by the Moslems,but the Moslems are equally anemic and can't give that push.The Moslems are not a threat to destroy traditional European civilization, the Socialist have already accomplished this on their own.The Europeans are the suppliers of material & know how that keep the Jihad going ,so why would the Arabs hurt Europe, other then a kick in the backside every so often,to remind the EU who is boss.Without European material & support,Arab ability to make war against Israel would have proven impossible long ago.The Social Engineers,( the Socialists in the EU & their partners in crime in America) know that the Arab half of this axis is economically indispensable to their dreams of Utopia & if the Arabs want to murder all of the Jews,that will be O.K. with the EU.As for much of the mainstream media which generates agit/prop for the Arabs,the same factors stated above apply.If big victories are not achieved by Israel & the U.S. in the next couple of years ( after the present administration leaves office) & if the Democrats take over the White House,Israel could be in big trouble. Without friends in the White House & with enemies in the EU (after Blair) things could get ugly in the Middle East.
SID WEINER
And then there is this message thread at Lucianne (Hat Tip-Aussiegirl):
Moring in Vienna
The American Thinker, by Timothy Birdnow
Original Article
Posted By:magnante, 8/5/2006 2:43:32 PM
There are pivotal moments in history, events in which the course of
human affairs is altered forever. One such moment occurred along the
Danube River in 1683. On that fateful morning in the later 17th century,
the fate of Western Civilization was sealed by the determination of
those brave defenders who stood their ground against the might of the
Ottoman Turks. We face a similar crisis today
Comments:
Reply 1 - Posted by: tnmartin, 8/5/2006 3:02:14 PM
Please read and save this article. Please do. One of our terrible
weaknesses is that we no longer read and know the history of our
civilized world and how we got to this point. Our enemies have not made
that mistake, and in fact know of our weakness in this. That needs to be
remedied, but that is a discussion for another day.
Reply 2 - Posted by: Arrasate, 8/5/2006 4:53:19 PM
This is a must read article.
A few months after 9/11 I stood at the Palacio Real in Madrid, Spain and
looked out at the Campo del moro, where the Moors camped as they
attacked Madrid in the 12th century. It's now a park, but the battle has
never ended.
It's vengeance they seek and the battle in Lebanon is another attempt at
payback.
I brought back a small doll that represents a woman of Madrid in native
costume. She holds a small baton in her hand, representing how the women
of Madrid engaged in hand to hand combat when the city was invaded and
their men were away. I think it's a real symbol of how vigilant we have
to be. They know what they want and we have to be clear about what we
will lose.
Reply 3 - Posted by: LadyVet, 8/5/2006 5:03:28 PM
#2, many people in the U.S. still feel the history of that battle where
the women fought. As a result of that and other battles where the women
also fought, the Spanish women claimed property rights, sort of a ''to a
victor goes the spoils'' thing. Several large states including
California, Texas, and Florida still have property laws based on the
Spanish system, thus married women are deemed to own half the property
acquired during a marriage. Overall, it is a more equitable system than
in those states which have separate property laws based on English
common law.
Reply 4 - Posted by: Flintlock, 8/5/2006 5:12:24 PM
Lock and load, people.
The battle is on.
Our gutless leaders still don't have a clue.
Bush at least knows he must fight, but hasen't yet figured out WHO.
Reply 5 - Posted by: tnmartin, 8/5/2006 5:17:35 PM
Point is, we're all feeling the effects of that battle. Both above
posters have thrown some light on some of those effects, I was unaware
of either.
But the point is that without the victory at the gates of Vienna, this
would be a different world. And a much worse one. The Muslims know and
keep alive the memory of 9/10/1683. Few Americans are aware of what
happened that day or what those fighting bequeathed us.
I fear we have squandered what their blood bought us, and as a result of
our sleep we shall fight similar battles, ones we may not win. Should
our descendants think well of us, or shall they curse our cowardice and
appeasement?
Reply 6 - Posted by: Aussiegirl, 8/5/2006 5:30:55 PM
This is an absolute must-read! We are doomed to repeat the mistakes of
history if we do not learn from it. How many people understand how
pivotal this one battle was in the entire history of the world? Imagine
this world if Islam had conquered Europe back than and remained in
power! Just look to modern day Iran to see what a nightmarish, brutal
backwater would be created. Persia was the seat of civilization at one
time in its history prior to being conquered by Islam. It was the center
of Zoroastroism, an enlightened monotheistic religion, and its culture
would have given rise to a great civilization. But its defeat by Islam
has deformed its once great culture, and left it as the menace we see
today. Islam pollutes everything it touches. Kudos to the author for
bringing this to our attention.
Reply 7 - Posted by: Arrasate, 8/5/2006 6:48:19 PM
Thanks #3, I didn't realize the connection between my Spanish doll and
my property rights, how interesting!
Reply 8 - Posted by: baja_ha, 8/5/2006 9:46:53 PM
Time to break out one of my favorite Patton quotes again:
''One cannot but ponder the question: What if the Arabs had been
Christian? To me it seems certain that the fatalistic teachings of
Mohammed and the utter degradation of women is the outstanding cause for
the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the
year 700, while we have kept on developing. Here, I think, is a text for
some eloquent sermon on the virtues of Christianity.''
~~ General George S. Patton, in his
autobiography, ''War As I Knew It''
Reply 9 - Posted by: zchem, 8/5/2006 10:53:13 PM
The Islaamic educational system of requriing young children to learn the
Koran before even reaching the age of reason is deeply flawed. Their
minda are hoplessly POISENED. Islam as it is now practiced must be
destroyed. If the nuts in Iran succeed in producing atomic weapons, they
will be willing to fight to the death of OUR PLANET, leaving earth as a
redioactive
wasteland. Billions of poisened minds can make billions of determined
terrorists.
Post Reply Close thread 289170
We have this from Free Republic:
Clearly, the democrats don't have the will for this fight and they'll capitulate the first chance they get.
2 posted on 08/06/2006 6:16:27 AM PDT by hershey
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
Good article. Thanks for posting.
We a witnessing the greatest anti-freedom, anti-life collective in the history of mankind.
3 posted on 08/06/2006 6:19:56 AM PDT by PGalt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
The Islamic world would have remained a backwater had it not been for a couple of fortuitous occurrences: the discovery of massive amounts of oil under the desert sands and the rise and fall of Soviet Communism.
So, let us utterly destroy these cancers on our society, and take all their oil! We already helped down the RUSSIAN Commies. We have just a few more totalitarian regimes to fell.
If they wanna play with nukes, let's oblige!
4 posted on 08/06/2006 6:31:23 AM PDT by pageonetoo (You'll spot their posts soon enough!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
An excellent historical perspective by Birdnow. His rationale for 9/11 being correlated to the Ottoman defeat at Vienna is compelling. Can we doubt that Ahmadinejad will confer equivalent infamy on August 6th if he is not thwarted?
5 posted on 08/06/2006 7:00:44 AM PDT by CharlesThe Hammer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
Does President Bush have the will? If there is another major terror attack in the Bush years, he will out-Hoover Hoover in the pages of history (for history, regardless who writes it, is taught by liberals).
It was encouraging when, in the last SOTU address, he referred to "radical Islam." But have we heard the phrase from him since?
6 posted on 08/06/2006 7:08:58 AM PDT by Graymatter (Don't like the PC, the lies, of the MSM? Don't watch TV.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
Good historical perspective.
We have not yet seen our "Gates of Vienna".
7 posted on 08/06/2006 7:20:06 AM PDT by Gritty (At the end of the war we win, there is light. At the end of the war we lose, there is the end.-Ben S)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Dark Skies
..we have the means, but do we have the will?
Sadly, as many more erudite than I have stated, "They are willing to die for their beliefs, while we are unwilling to kill them for ours." Ergo, we cannot win, and they will not lose.
A corollary to this is that when you do not wage war on an enemy that is at war with you, you fail. In that simplistic phrase is the implication that the one waging 'war' knows what the word means - destruction of the foe by killing its people and breaking its property. This is done without regard to concepts like civilians, proportionality or human rights. War is waged successfully without the fear that your enemy will not like you in the end; the enemy cannot hate you anymore than to aspire to killing you, your children, your way of life and your civilization.
8 posted on 08/06/2006 8:33:32 AM PDT by Thommas (The snout of the camel is in the tent...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Thommas
Excellent post.
Though the non-muslin world will not sink to the craven depths of warfare as conducted by the islamics (i.e. targeting civilians, hiding by women and children, beheadings, etc.), our rules of engagement will eventually fall to a kind of a common denominator of cruelty (in which our ways, while never cowardly like theirs, will become commensurately vicious).
Here is a lengthy and heated argument at a blog called Redneck`s Revenge about the piece.
Finally, there is an interesting discussion at America`s Debate about the War in general, curtesy of MOIF, that you may want to check out.
Thanks to all!
posted by Timothy Birdnow | 5:35 AM
1 Comments:
Timothy,
First, let me compliment you on that excellent piece in American Thinker. What an excellent history-lesson!
From one of the comments published in the blog article here:
The Islaamic educational system of requriing young children to learn the
Koran before even reaching the age of reason is deeply flawed. Their
minda are hoplessly POISENED.
Nothing has changed. And why? It's the Koran itself. Please see THIS, which contains comparisons of Nazism and Islam.
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